doggod
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Message Posted: Nov 2, 2012 3:49:15 PM
2amy, I was like you and everyone else: deep down I knew all the silliness about invisible people and places was just that, but I went along because it was, after all, a warm and fuzzy story and everyone else seemed to go for it, so who am I to be questioning it?
The difference between me and you and all those other people, though, seems to be that I never completely squelched that little voice in there telling me, "Come on, get real, you know better than that!"
It's quite frightening to see the way the "god" meme is able to get people to shut down their own senses like that, especially when history is so clear about the atrocities that spring up after that enslavement process has completed its work. Not even history; current events too, for that matter.
I'm not a big fan of atrocities or enslavement, either one, so that's why I'm here trying to spread the word that it's OK to free up that little voice again and follow the path of common sense to freedom.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Nov 2, 2012 9:30:08 AM
I remember when my 1st grade teacher made a comment to the effect that the history of religion consists of going from lots of gods to fewer, and now we're down to only one. I thought to myself, "only one more to go and we'll be there". Of course at that age I didn't say it out loud.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Nov 2, 2012 8:37:03 AM
Good morning doggod.
You said you went to Wheaton College. A christian alla matter. Since you went there something turned you to believe that there was no God. Do you mind me asking you whst or why?
Alot of people I know get turned off on God who seek the catholic religion that's why I just assumed. The reason they leave God is because of all the ritual garbage and when you ask them a serious question about your life they have an idiotic response, because they are all wrapped up in the ritchual aspect of the catholic religion.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Nov 2, 2012 8:36:46 AM
Good morning doggod.
You said you went to Wheaton College. A christian alla matter. Since you went there something turned you to believe that there was no God. Do you mind me asking you whst or why?
Alot of people I know get turned off on God who seek the catholic religion that's why I just assumed. The reason they leave God is because of all the ritual garbage and when you ask them a serious question about your life they have an idiotic response, because they are all wrapped up in the ritchual aspect of the catholic religion.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Oct 22, 2012 1:41:03 PM
doggod, I often have problems with people trying to peg me to the classic "left" or "right", when I'm not either. Some people think that because I'm an atheist that I must be "left", when in fact I'm an elected Republican. And when people hear THAT, they assume that I must be in favor of military expansionism, which I am not.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2012 9:40:53 AM
ldheinz, I'm always perplexed and bewildered at how many people who call themselves atheists or freethinkers or what-have-you miss your point about government. They tend to be proponents of big government, or as the media call it, "liberals".
Instead of bowing down to the Big Invisible Guy, they bow down to the Big Nanny Who Will Solve All Our Problems If We Can Just Get Enough People To Vote For Our Favorite Candidates. They think of themselves as rational, but they rarely if ever allow a discussion of the rationality, let alone the morality, of organizing society on the basis of force and violence and licensing criminal behavior to a select group of people who wear certain clothes or carry the right paperwork.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Oct 18, 2012 12:37:18 PM
doggod - "I grew up."
That's the way I look at it, too. I don't need any substitute parents to care for me, either government or fantasy-based. I'm an adult now.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Oct 18, 2012 11:38:48 AM
Nope. Not Catholic, Amy. To cut short the guessing game, I graduated from Wheaton Academy, the prep school for Wheaton College, Billy Graham's alma mater.
So you'll need to come with another theory to explain why I chose reality over fantasy. Here's one: reality is self-evident, fantasy is fantasy. I grew up.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2012 2:50:16 PM
Doggod; I have been on the road with no internet, However let me take a wild guess. You were brought up a Catholic. You went through the Catholic rituals. And when you got older something happened and you started to question the Catholic life style. Maybe even going to a priest and figured out he was full of crap. And from that time on you questioned weather there was a God.
Am i right?
As far as I'm concerned the Catholic religion is a bunch of ritual non sense. It can make most people question weather there is a God or not.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 2:19:41 PM
OK, well, I think I'll just stick with getting the ads. They are pretty funny, after all. That dating service came up again today, telling me they'll help me find "God's life mate". I'm going, "Hey, wait a minute, if this "God" guy needs help from a website to find me a "life-mate", what is he, some kind of wimp-god?
Time to go shoppin', I think. Here's this guy calls himself "omnipotent", but when the rubber hits the road he's got to call in help from web developers and websites. Me, I'm lookin' for the Guy with the moxie to git-er-done. No bowin' down and lettin' some pretend god run my life, no-sir.
New theory: "Christian dating services" are really run by The Devil. A clever, back-handed way of discrediting the Big Guy. Pass it around to all your Christian friends. Just for the fun of it.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 10:04:33 AM
I haven't seen any ads at all on GB, since I started using Adblock Plus. There are just large white spaces around the content. Also, my pages paint MUCH faster than they used to.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 4:26:08 PM
OK, this is a little off topic, but does anybody else get barraged with ads about religion on these fora nominally dedicated to atheism but in which religion inevitably gets discussed?
Apparently it's due to key word mining by Google adwords ... or whoever is running the system ... which I find quite amusing in this context. Yesterday they wanted me to sign up to find a "Christ-centered" life mate, today I'm supposed to post a prayer request on some website or start taking on-line classes at Liberty University.
Yeah, right. Maybe next lifetime! Oh wait, they don't believe in reincarnation, I guess. OK, never mind then.
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catspaw
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 10:20:08 AM
Exactly ldheinz. Most people in N America end up Christian (if anything) merely because their parents are Christian and most of their friends and coworkers are Christian. It's not because Christianity is 'the truth' but because it's the one that they have the most exposure to, especially at a young age.
If the same child was adopted out to a Jewish or a Hindu or a Muslim family, and especially if they were moved to a predominantly Jewish, Hindu or Muslim country at a very young age, unless they became atheist or agnostic, they would adapt to the religion of their adoptive parents and/or country and believe just as fervently in that different religion as they now do in Christianity.
The religion you are is more a factor of your environment than it is of your ability to think and reason. The more one thinks and reasons about religion instead of just blindly obeying, the harder it is to believe in any religion.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Oct 4, 2012 1:01:21 PM
2amy, most atheists in North America started out as xtians, as that's what most people are. As to spelling, my browser automatically does a spelling check, but when posting there's a "Check Spelling" button right next to the "Post Message" button. Your posts carry more weight when you sound more literate, and correct spelling helps with that.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2012 10:05:43 AM
>> You would know what I mean. <<
Actually, no I wouldn't. If there's something arcane going on here, you'll have to spell it out because apparently I'm out of whatever loop you thought we were both in.
But to answer in the general, perhaps philosophical sense, where I'm at is where I always was but never allowed myself to see when I was younger: the here and now. Turns out that's all there is. There is no past; it's just memory. There is no future; it's just imagination. The only thing real is what's happening right now.
Which is kind of cool when you think about it in terms of the Christian idea of "eternity", because the definition of "right now" is identical to "eternity". Always was, is now and always will be. No matter how far back you go in history, when it happened it was "right now", and no matter how far you imagine into the future, when it finally comes about it will also be "right now".
So the correct answer to the evangelist's facile question, "Where will you spend eternity?" is "Right here, right now."
Because the question itself is nonsensical, get it? There is no "will" in eternity. It's not in the future or the past, it only exists in what we're doing right here, right now.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2012 9:21:53 PM
Very sorry Doggod about my spelling. It was never a good subject in school for me. Using the The "I" before "E" But at one point it stops. As far as the gas buddy spell check; it is only suggestions on what word to use.
However after reading your post I had no idea that at one time you believed as I do. My question to you now is where are you at? You would know what I mean.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Sep 20, 2012 3:09:56 PM
I don't doubt anything you say, 2amy, because everything you write reminds me of something I might have written years ago (well, except for the spelling; why not try using the "Check Spelling" button before you post your messages?)
There was a time when I was just as vociferous and adamant as you about these things. I "gave my heart to Jesus", I stood up innumerable times in Sunday evening services and gave my testimony about the way "The Lord" had brought meaning and richness to my life, I went forward and "rededicated my life to Christ" time and again, I sang in the choir, I was a summer camp counselor ... there wasn't much you could do that I didn't do. If you had asked me whether I had any doubts about any of it, I would have been insulted and asked you how you could even think such a thing.
So I have considerable empathy for where you're coming from. I know now that the whole time there was a voice inside telling, repeating again and again that the whole thing was baloney, but I couldn't hear the voice because that's the insidious nature of the trap ... it squelches the voice, blaming it on "the Devil", that other imaginary guy.
How did I escape? I don't know for sure, but I think the small things people said to me along the way had a lot to do with it. It took years before I finally realized it was all behind me and real life was beginning.
I look around and see people going to their graves never experiencing the light and joy of reality, so it's obviously a possibility for you too. But if I can be one of those people saying small things along your road, and my words eventually help you find your way out of the trap, that's all I want.
Here's the lyrics to "Be the Guy", a song I wrote a while back that speak to that in a way:
Places I’ve been and gone
Things I’ve said and done
Some are good, some are best,
Some are best forgotten
All the while the little things
Came my way, made me who I’m still becoming
We touched and felt the magic
But there’s still more
Before all is said and done
I want to be the guy, want to be that guy
To make a difference
A difference in your life.
I am you, and you are me
Doing this thing we do together
Going our separate ways
Feeling pain, wearing masks,
Pretending we’re one to the other.
We touched, felt the magic
And there’s still more
Before all is said and done
I want to be the guy, want to be that guy
To make a difference
A difference in your life.
We thought we were somebody
Footloose and fancy free
Rainbows without the showers,
World without end, amen, amen
But we were just as there as never
We touched, felt the magic
And there’s still more
Before all is said and done
I want to be the guy, want to be that guy
To make a difference
A difference in your life.
So let’s sing this tune together
Let the music fly
Get lost in the melody
Dance to the beat, dance to the beat
Because the song is who we be
We touched, felt the magic
And there’s still more
Before all is said and done
I want to be the guy, want to be that guy
To make a difference
A difference in your life.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 20, 2012 8:46:49 AM
2amy - "You make it sound as if my life and for that matter that anyone who believes in God that our lives are totally useles and screwed up and that we dont have much of one."
I know that you believe it is a full life, but you're wasting it believing in fantasy. I base my life on REAL things, and it therefore has REAL meaning. Just because you're happy believing a fantasy doesn't make that fantasy real. I have a friend who dresses up in Klingon stuff and talks to people in Klingon, but even he realizes that he's just doing it for fun, that it's not real.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2012 7:33:33 PM
Well good day to you doggod. You make it sound as if my life and for that matter that anyone who believes in God that our lives are totally useles and screwed up and that we dont have much of one. I am sorry to dissapoint you. Yes my life is focused on God. Yes the God that is talked about in the Bible. However I live life to the fullest, and I do live a shining life in clarity and light.(as you quoted) A lot of people who believe in God do.
Because one who believes in God doesnt necessarily mean that we dont have any type of fun, and that our minds are screwed up. We do all kinds of things no different than you.
Pretty much the same. Basically the only difference between you and me is gender and our beliefs.
However I do understand everyone will not accept Christ.
And for me to leave God behind. NEVER.
[Edited by: 2amy at 9/19/2012 8:35:07 PM EST]
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doggod
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Message Posted: Sep 6, 2012 11:31:56 AM
2amy, your persistence in this thread bespeaks a hunger to be persuaded of what you already know deep down ... that these ideas you have allowed to take over your life are completely bogus.
But you need people to tell you it's OK to leave them behind. Well, here you are, and here we are. We're telling you: it's OK. It really is. It will mean big changes, probably with your family and friends, but it will be worth it because, in the end, truth is always worth it.
It's the only life you'll ever have, so don't waste it wallowing in fantasies when you could be living a shining life in clarity and light.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 6, 2012 8:07:24 AM
2amy - "Why is the Bible the most read book in the world, also the most popular in the world."
2amy, this is an excellent example of the classical rhetorical fallacy of Appeal to Popularity. Just because something is popular does not mean that it is true. People used to believe that the Earth is flat, but it wasn't, for example. Harry Potter is popular. Does Harry Potter exist?
2amy - "Does Jesus exist?"
Definitely not. If he ever existed, he died roughly 2000 years ago. It's highly unlikely that even his bones survive.
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CookieAcct
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Message Posted: Sep 6, 2012 8:02:52 AM
I do admire your persistence 2amy.
<Why is the Bible the most read book in the world?> Great salesmanship. Actually there may be umpteen millions of copies out there but how many people have actually read it? Have you?
<As for a bunch of guys getting together to put this in writing? come on.>
Here is just
one reference You can find lots more with a simple Google search or just ask your priest or preacher or whoever.
<Does Jesus exist?> Well, personally I think it is quite likely that a charismatic Jewish preacher going by that name may have existed at that time but whether he was (or is) divine is certainly open to question.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Sep 6, 2012 7:08:55 AM
Well answer me this. Why is the Bible the most read book in the world, also the most popular in the world. Has broken the gennis (spelt wrong)book of records,
As for a bunch of guys getting together to put this in writing? come on.
But a question. Does Jesus exist?
[Edited by: 2amy at 9/6/2012 8:11:30 AM EST]
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2012 8:53:56 AM
Actually, the "bible", and essentially xtianity, are the creation of the Roman Empire. Emperor Constantine saw that the empire was fragmenting and decided to see if one religion could unify it. The Roman Empire had always been neutral on religion, but since xtianity was getting popular Constantine decided to appropriate it for his needs. Problem was, it was little more than a bunch of conflicting beliefs and stories, so he had the most powerful xtians brought together to figure out just one version that could be used for his purposes. At the first Council of Nicaea, where they edited the bible, there were many beliefs presented, including that Jesus of Nazareth was just a normal human who did and preached stuff, none of which was divine in any way. In the end, the "divine" side won by one vote. They selected some of the books that were consistent and burned the rest.
Many of the beliefs of xtianity were simply stolen from other religions, particularly Mithraism. The virgin birth on December 25, the 12 disciples, the symbolic cannibalism with bread and wine, and the death and resurrection on Easter Sunday were all stolen from Mithraism. (Virgin births are particularly common among deities.) The Vatican grounds were originally reserved for the worship of Mithra, as it was popular among the Roman troops, and it is easier to convert people to a new religion if it's essentially identical to the old one.
[Edited by: ldheinz at 9/4/2012 9:57:24 AM EST]
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doggod
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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2012 11:55:45 AM
Belief in a god and belief in the authority of the Bible do not imply each other, 2amy. "The Bible" is a collection of writings a bunch of guys got together and decided they would henceforth call "The Bible", and their political influence allowed them to get other people to buy into their idea.
So belief in the inerrancy of the Bible is, in effect, belief in the inerrancy of the guys at the Council of Nicea. Which you and zillions of other people do apparently believe ... even though there doesn't appear to be any justification for it whatsoever. Much like believing there's a Magical Man in the Sky, I suppose. That's why it's called "belief". Or, as it's called in other contexts, "hallucination".
It's as if Obama, Putin, Joe "The Pope" Ratzinger, Desmond Tutu and the Emperor of Japan all had a meeting in Fresno and came out of the room declaring that the writings of Ernest Hemingway were the Word of God. Printers would come out with black, leather-bound, gold-leaf editions of Hemingway collections, and hundreds of years later people would be quoting passages to justify bizarre behavior and practices, citing as their authority the ancient "Council of Fresno" and the "Holy Hemingway".
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2amy
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Message Posted: Sep 2, 2012 8:56:05 AM
I really find it interesting that you have read the Bible and have a good knowledge of the Bible.I know a handful of people who know the Bible inside and out but they purely dont beleive in God. They know the Bible better than me and I teach. (The Bible)
To me that shows that you are intelligent.
The Bible is long and I'll admit parts are boring. Which would bring me to question why you dont beleive in God? From our chats back and forth it seems your not a (what I call a ground hog christian) Come out only at Christmas and Easter.
Also there are no evil things taught by the Bible. The evil comes from man himself. In the old testament God did destroy the earth because of its wickedness. He wanted to destroy more but out of his love he didn't. But in the new testament he did not.
And the Bible does not regularly say "you should kill your children," Or if a person steals "cut off his hand".(although that sure would cut down on crime) A lot of laws were talked about in Exodus. That's where we get the ten commandments. At that time period God's people were slaves to the egyptians where Pharosh was king and a wicked one at that.
Although God can do miracles, he normally leads us by wise leadership effort. His words give us wisdom to make daily decisions to govern our lives.
Since you believe that there is a Bible and you dont agree with it, Is the Bible a book of fiction to you?
In the New testament is where Jesus, God's son was born, lived as us but without sin and was crucified for you and me for our sins. I really dont know of anybody who would sacrifice threir child to save the lives of many. God truly does love you. There is nothing you can do that would make him not love you.
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catspaw
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Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 11:46:40 AM
doggog - "Your example of the "flat earth", ldheinz, would be one of several of these astronomy-related battles fought in centuries past, and now we're still in the middle of it with the silliness about "creationism" and "intelligent design"."
ldheinz - "Simply believing is dangerous."
Bill Nye summed it up nicely in a video, titled "Creationism Is Not Appropriate for Children".
"In it Nye said widespread public doubt in the scientific concept of evolution -- which holds that human beings and all other forms of life developed from a process of random genetic mutation and natural selection -- would hinder a country long renowned for its innovation, intellectual capital and a general grasp of science."
It's quite possible that the resurgence of evangelism and creationism is at least partially responsible for the decline in the US position of technological and therefore economic power in the world.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 5:47:43 PM
It doesn't take any great perspicacity when viewing the world around us and comparing it to what we read about in the history books to see the profound benefits logic and reason has showered on mankind since it began replacing religion as the default lens through which to view things.
From that, logic itself would lead us to expect that mankind would have by now completely embraced reason, and religion would be a relic consigned to the same books describing the suffering and death it wrought since the dawn of recorded history. That the contrary is true, that religion is still alive and well, seems to be shouting something important about how the brain works, and this thread is evolving into another interesting glimpse into the mystery of what and why that is.
My guess is we'll never understand it through this kind of discourse, though. I'm looking for something to emerge in the field of neuroscience that will reveal the biological roots of this brain dysfunction and perhaps eventually find a cure for it.
Or if it doesn't, maybe the destructive power of religion, mated with the destructive power of new technologies, will drive our species to extinction, and then there will be no one left to think about it, let alone care.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 8:03:10 AM
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 7:55:20 AM
2amy - "I choose to beleive because that'a what the Bible says. "
The bible regularly says that you should kill children for talking back to adults (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark 7:9-13, and Matthew 15:4-7). Do you do that?
2amy - "And to beleive what the Bible says is not childish. "
Actually, to blindly believe what people 1700-2500 years ago believed about the world and ignore all that we've learned since IS childish. And wrong. As I showed above, there's a lot of evil things that are taught by the bible, and good people SHOULDN'T follow them.
2amy - "It is God's Word and I can see you wont have anything to do with it. "
I've read it. That's WHY I avoid it.
2amy - "Just because we cant see God does not mean he doesnt exist. "
And just because we can't see god does not mean that he does exist, either.
2amy - "Christians beleive in God because they have faith just as I do and you do. "
Actually, I define faith as "belief without proof", and I don't have faith. I prefer reasoning. It gives me proof, so that I KNOW things, not simply BELIEVE them. You can BELIEVE anything, true or not. Simply believing is dangerous. It can lead you to things like the Jim Jones cult.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 7:20:01 AM
Idheinz and Johnsell: I choose to beleive because that'a what the Bible says. And to beleive what the Bible says is not childish. It is God's Word and I can see you wont have anything to do with it. As for Santa; well that's not even in the picture.
Just because we cant see God does not mean he doesnt exist. Well for that matter you cant see me and I exist. Christians beleive in God because they have faith just as I do and you do.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2012 8:28:07 PM
2amy - "As I stated before to argue back and forth is childish. And yes ther are things that are right and wrong. Its to bad. I'm right and your wrong. End of story. "
Sorry, 2amy, but the reverse is true. To blindly accept what you are told by authority figures is childish, for example, believing in Santa Claus. When we grow up, we learn that the authority figures didn't know anything more than we did, and we try to find out what REALLY is true. And being afraid of confronting people who have different beliefs is childish as well. We can only learn by first unlearning old falsehoods, and that means admitting that we might be wrong about everything. Fear of debate is an admission of insecurity in one's beliefs. There is no "End of story".
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johnsell
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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2012 4:19:34 PM
2amy - "As far as our new body going to heaven when Jesus comes is not something I made up. It states it in the Bible in Revalation."
No, not something you made up, however it is something you choose to believe for whatever your reasons.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2012 3:04:27 PM
>>As I stated before to argue back and forth is childish. And yes ther are things that are right and wrong.
Its to bad. I'm right and your wrong. End of story.<<
Oh, the delicious irony!
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2amy
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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2012 4:37:00 PM
Idheinz:
As I stated before to argue back and forth is childish. And yes ther are things that are right and wrong.
Its to bad. I'm right and your wrong. End of story.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2012 4:34:43 PM
Hello Johnsell;
As far as our new body going to heaven when Jesus comes is not something I made up. It states it in the Bible in Revalation.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2012 12:59:13 PM
This post-modernist idea of "there are no facts, only opinions" would be laughable on account of its absurdity (if it's true, then the proposition itself is only an opinion, making the discussion pointless) if it weren't also dangerous. It is, after all, at the root of much of the European accession to horrid Islamic practices such as female genital mutilation. ("Oh, it's their culture. They have theirs and we have ours.")
It also appears to be a tool increasingly used by religionists generally to cast shadows of doubt whenever possible on the widespread, undeniable successes of the scientific method of thought ... which rests on the assumption that there is such a thing as a real world.
The centuries-long process of emerging from the Dark Ages brought about by Christian hegemony has seen Christianity falling back one step at a time, each time staking out some new position it believed it could hold, only to fall back again when science revealed it to be false. Your example of the "flat earth", ldheinz, would be one of several of these astronomy-related battles fought in centuries past, and now we're still in the middle of it with the silliness about "creationism" and "intelligent design".
The "no facts, just opinions" proposition would seem to be the ultimate of these fallback positions. At least until people wake up to how absurd it is. Maybe there's hope yet.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2012 10:19:36 AM
2amy - "To argue back and forth is childish on who is right or wrong. To put some one down for their beliefs is unacceptable."
Well, there are things that are right and wrong. All things are not just opinion. For example, for someone to insist that the Earth is flat would be incorrect.
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johnsell
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Message Posted: Aug 20, 2012 9:57:08 AM
2amy - "I do not believe or does the Bible say there is life after death. It does say when judgement day comes that those who accepted me (Jesus) will go on into heaven. What that means is our old body stays here and our new body goes to heaven without the hurts or pains."
Just curious how you explain 'there is no life after death' and yet define that 'our new body goes to heaven'? Is that something you 'know' to be true or just what you choose to believe is true?
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2amy
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Message Posted: Aug 17, 2012 12:38:29 PM
Idheinz:
You stated "I think that the last 2 posts may have been too much for 2amy... "
I'm sorry but they were not to much for me. I am a very strong person and can hold my own. However everyone has their own beliefs and I believe in making friends before presenting the subject of God. I do not go around telling people what they need to believe or not to believe.
Doggod had said that St Paul had written a lot of the books in the New Testament; (he apparently learned something in his private schooling) Paul was not a saint. He was an Apostle.
To argue back and forth is childish on who is right or wrong. To put some one down for their beliefs is unacceptable.
I do not believe or does the Bible say there is life after death. It does say when judgement day comes that those who accepted me (Jesus) will go on into heaven. What that means is our old body stays here and our new body goes to heaven without the hurts or pains.
Never underestimate the power of your actions. With one small gesture you can change a person's life. For better or for worse.
A soft answer has often been the means of breaking a hard heart.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 15, 2012 8:20:59 AM
When my daughter was 8 I told her that jesus is santa claus for grown-ups. She laughed, but it made an impression.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Aug 14, 2012 6:43:04 PM
Hey, six-ball, thanks.
I've actually made it a sort of avocation, or hobby, or what have you, to plant these seeds in the minds of young people I meet whenever I get the chance. Sort of like in that movie, "Pay it Forward", somebody "paid it forward" to me, so I owe it to the next generation to pass it along. My target age is a bit younger, though, since I think by the time they reach the mid-teens the baloney has started to ossify in their brains, as it had with me.
My assumption is that everyone is, deep down, like me. And looking back I have to realize I always had doubts about the stuff I was told by my parents. The stuff that didn't make sense, that is. Things like "look both ways before you cross a street" and "wash your hands before you come to the table" were internally consistent and sensible, which made it all the more difficult when these same people told me there was an invisible man in the sky. They were obviously right about crossing the street and washing my hands, so my not getting the part about the invisible man must be my fault, I thought.
If only somebody had whispered in my ear when I was, say, 8 or 9 years old and said, "Psst! Just want you to know ... the stuff the grownups tell you that doesn't sound right? It's not your fault, it actually isn't right. Trust yourself ... you know what's right. They're just repeating stuff their parents told them, and deep down they know it's not right too, but they can't bring themselves to admit it now that so many years have gone by. So play along and pretend if you have to while you're growing up, but remember what I'm telling you because your life is your own, not your parents', and you have a chance to escape the chains they're bound in."
If only. What a difference I think that would have made!
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six_ball_man
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Message Posted: Aug 14, 2012 5:48:34 PM
Good point dog...You are fortunate that someone like that happened to pass through your life.
In addendum...when you have a discussion, you in all likelihood will not change the mind of any true believer. Someone nearby that is listening in is another story all together. That is why we shouldn't shy away from the discussions. Just conduct them civilly so as to represent us in the most favorable light.
Cheers!
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doggod
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 11:23:10 AM
Thinking back at my own life, I realized I should probably retract what I said about the probable futility of changing people's minds with rational discussions. When I was about 16 or 17 and going to a well-known "Christian" high school (there weren't as many then as there are now), a guy sat down next to me on the commuter train I was riding out of Chicago, and we started talking about the school I went to, which led to a discussion about the dogma underlying the school's existence, which led to his introducing me to many of the subjects discussed on this thread.
I don't recall what I said, but I'm pretty sure my reaction was lukewarm, at best ... since at that time I was still trying to pretend to myself that I believed all the hogwash ... and so he probably thought his words had fallen on deaf ears. But they hadn't. Whatever they were (actual words long since forgotten) they lay in my brain trying to sprout like dormant seeds. Eventually they did, growing into trees that broke through the nonsensical ceiling and allowing a huge inrush of fresh air for my life.
I don't think I ever learned the guy's name, but whoever he is I'd like to thank him for the wonderful thing he did.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 8:18:55 AM
2amy, to generalize, I believe religion comes from a desire to know the answers to important questions in life. Problem is, humanity doesn't KNOW the answers to a lot of things, like where everything came from, is there life after death, and so forth. Not liking unanswered questions, many people just accept other people's guesses, and that's what we call "religion". Sometimes other people guess right, and sometimes they guess wrong. Accepting it without thinking is the evil that comes from religion. It allows other people to take advantage of you.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 12:30:46 PM
I think that the last 2 posts may have been too much for 2amy...
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2012 4:07:15 PM
Well, yes, doggod, there is a significant possibility that "Jesus Christ" is about as real as "Harry Potter". That's definitely true with regards to his supposed supernatural abilities. Much of his supposed history is a direct rip-off of the characteristics of Mithra, from the virgin birth on December 25 to the 12 disciples and the bread and wine symbolic cannibalism to the dying and resurrecting after 3 days on Easter Sunday. That's why I say that even if he existed, there's little doubt that those characteristics were attributed to him after the fact.
There's also the fact that none of the books of the NT were written until decades after his death, and no one who wrote any of it actually heard anything that Jesus said first hand. It was all made up later. No one has any idea what Jesus of Nazareth actually believed or said.
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doggod
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2012 3:28:30 PM
I don't mean to be getting in the middle of this thing you and 2amy have going, ldheinz. You're doing a bang-up job of explaining everything to her and implicitly displaying a lot more trust than I have that she'll be convinced of anything contradicting her feel-goodisms.
But there was a tiny point I thought worth adding:
The best evidence seems to lead to the conclusion that there really wasn't, in fact, a historical person who lived and died as recorded in the gospels. They're chock full of contradictions about the Jesus story. But then, what would you expect from books written almost a century after the fact? Nowadays, if someone writes a story about someone in the Civil War, we understand it's a fictionalized rendition to breathe life into some old newspaper stories or what-not. But in those days the Jews didn't have journalism like we do today, nor did they think of "history" as being an attempt to record events as they actually occurred. The job of the "historian" was to write stuff that would serve some political or moral purpose. Adherence to actual events wasn't even on the radar. So, with nothing reliable to base their story on, imagination ruled the day.
As an example, there's the story about how all the Jews were ordered to go to their home towns to be counted in a census, with the ulterior motive to try to kill Jesus ... but he escaped with his parents to Egypt. The Romans were famous for their record-keeping in legal matters like this, and there is zero record of this census ever having taken place.
But perhaps more telling is the way St. Paul, the guy who wrote most of the verbiage in the New Testament, stays completely mute about Jesus' life. It's as if to him Jesus was an iconic figure, a point of reference in promoting his agenda ... which is, after all, the real basis of what now passes for Christianity.
Applying your line of thinking about best available evidence to history, one is compelled to the conclusion that the Jesus narrative was patched together out of a hodge-podge of historical events as a way of serving the purposes of those commissioning and financing the effort: a succession of emperors and other political bigwigs.
Leaving aside the way they contradicted each other (Why wouldn't they? They didn't even know each other!) they did a pretty nice job, it seems to me, of pulling together all the usual suspects from previous religions ... virgin birth, miracles, gruesome torture leading to death, resurrection, ascension to heaven ... and delivering stories so full of drama and pathos people for centuries thereafter overlooked the fact that they couldn't have happened.
Much like we now know Washington never did chop down his dad's cherry tree, and Lincoln really didn't write the Gettysburg Address on the back of an envelope, but they're such great stories we keep telling them anyway.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2012 8:11:29 AM
2amy - "However since you say there is no God"
Actually, I believe that there is PROBABLY no god as there is no evidence for a god. I can't prove that there isn't a god that doesn't do anything, though.
2amy - "I would like to know where did the universe or for that matter the planet Earth come from. Did they just appear."
The most likely probability given the evidence that we have currently supports a big bang about 13.7 billion years ago that created the universe, and our solar system was formed from dust accretion about 4.5 billion years ago. If we find evidence that contradicts that, then we'll change our opinion.
2amy - "Do you then beleive we as humans came from a monkey? (my teachers taught me that in grade school)"
Then they taught you wrong. The best evidence is that both humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor species in the last 2-20 million years, with closer species splitting off nearer to the present time.
2amy - "So when we die then where do you think we will go? Since there is no heaven to you. Is there a hell to you?"
There is no evidence of any life after death. It appears to simply be wishful thinking on the part of humans that fear death. That means no heaven or hell.
2amy - "So to me its because you cant see our God is the reason you dont beleive he exists? Is rhat correct? "
It's not just sight. I believe in things that I can't see if there is other evidence for them. There is no evidence of god, so I don't believe in god. There is only evidence that people WANT there to be a god.
2amy - "Do you beleive in Jesus Christ? Not because you heard it but beleive in him."
I believe that there was probably a person named Jesus of Nazareth. I don't believe that he was anything more than a person with some religious beliefs that pissed off the establishment and got him a terrible punishment for it.
2amy - "I worked with a fellow co worker you said I don't beleive in God but Just in case there is a God I go to church on Christmas and Easter. (Not that that will get him into heaven. But that was his beleif.) "
My father said the same thing. Yes, it's ridiculous. If there is a god, he's not that stupid or we shouldn't call him "god".
2amy - "I dont mean to sound harsh towards you. I mean no dis respect to you or your beleifs. Amy "
That's OK. People have been a lot more harsh with me before, and me with them. And likewise, I'm sure.
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2amy
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2012 6:39:04 PM
Idheinz:
I hope all is well with you. Life does get a little busy, but life is good.
However since you say there is no God I would like to know where did the universe or for that matter the planet Earth come from. Did they just appear. Do you then beleive we as humans came from a monkey? (my teachers taught me that in grade school)
So when we die then where do you think we will go? Since there is no heaven to you. Is there a hell to you?
So to me its because you cant see our God is the reason you dont beleive he exists? Is rhat correct?
Do you beleive in Jesus Christ? Not because you heard it but beleive in him.
I worked with a fellow co worker you said I don't beleive in God but Just in case there is a God I go to church on Christmas and Easter. (Not that that will get him into heaven. But that was his beleif.)
I dont mean to sound harsh towards you. I mean no dis respect to you or your beleifs. Amy
[Edited by: 2amy at 8/6/2012 7:42:37 PM EST]
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