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gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 1, 2012 12:34:13 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse "That plan includes the commercial-scale facility in Crescentino, Italy, designed to produce up to 20 MMgy of cellulosic ethanol when fully operational. Locally obtained rice straw, wheat straw and Arundo donax will serve as the facility’s primary feedstocks, but the trademarked Proesa process technology developed by Chemtex is feedstock agnostic, a quality which Ghisolfi says will be key to the technology’s wide-ranging success. “We can make cellulosic ethanol starting from any biomass, any grass, any straw,” he says. “You can run a week with rice straw, a week with corn stover, a week with wheat straw, without changing hardware and without changing enzymes. This gives a lot of flexibility because you can get different types of biomass from the area around the plant depending on the season [and] the cost.” The largest cellulosic ethanol plants in the world are ready to prove their mettle

gamechanger2011

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Wichita

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Message Posted: May 1, 2012 12:34:13 PM

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"That plan includes the commercial-scale facility in Crescentino, Italy, designed to produce up to 20 MMgy of cellulosic ethanol when fully operational. Locally obtained rice straw, wheat straw and Arundo donax will serve as the facility’s primary feedstocks, but the trademarked Proesa process technology developed by Chemtex is feedstock agnostic, a quality which Ghisolfi says will be key to the technology’s wide-ranging success. “We can make cellulosic ethanol starting from any biomass, any grass, any straw,” he says. “You can run a week with rice straw, a week with corn stover, a week with wheat straw, without changing hardware and without changing enzymes. This gives a lot of flexibility because you can get different types of biomass from the area around the plant depending on the season [and] the cost.”
The largest cellulosic ethanol plants in the world are ready to prove their mettle

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gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 29, 2012 11:38:39 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse "Brazil-based GraalBio Investimentos S.A. will begin building Brazil’s first commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plant this summer in Alagaos, Brazil, a small coastal state in the northeast region of the country. Beta Renewables, a $350 million joint venture between Italian chemical company Mossi & Ghisolfi Group’s Chemtex division and private investment firm TPG, has agreed to license its trademarked Proesa pretreatment process technology to GraalBio for the 22 MMgy plant, which will allow GraalBio to convert locally sourced sugarcane straw and bagasse into ethanol and lignin" Brazil's first cellulosic ethanol plant [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/30/2012 12:39:25 AM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 29, 2012 11:05:42 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse I love this article ethanolbob. This company is also working with Brazil to build their first cellulosic ethanol plant.
ethanolbob All-Star Author Maryland Posts:716 Points:137,325 Joined:Aug 2007	Message Posted: May 29, 2012 4:27:13 AM Ignore ethanolbob Report Abuse Sounds good. Bring it on.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,322 Points:728,160 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 3:03:47 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Shockjock1961 wrote: "What all this has to do with posting here, I'm unclear on. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that?" As for the answer, quote by Shockjock1961 to Shockjock1961: "Selective memory perhaps?" [Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 5/4/2012 4:07:45 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,322 Points:728,160 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 3:01:31 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Shockjock1961 wrote: "I see. Run out of defensible statements and go on the personal attack..." What personal attack? Since when stating facts is considered a personal attack? Did you mean these? 1. "Selective memory perhaps?" 2. "I see, playing ignorant..." Yes, these are very good examples of personal comments. Feel free to report yourself. [Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 5/4/2012 4:01:08 PM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 2:42:23 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Isn't the government subsidizing your paycheck while you post on these chat sites" I see. Run out of defensible statements and go on the personal attack... In answer to your question, the Feds do subsidize higher education, I don't think they should be. Do they subsidize my personal pay check? Not at all. I'm an employee of the state, and like everyone else that works, my employer pays me for the work I do for them. What all this has to do with posting here, I'm unclear on. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that?
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 2:36:38 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shockjock1961 says "I believe in free enterprise and believe that the Federal government should not be subsidizing any body." Isn't the government subsidizing your paycheck while you post on these chat sites?
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 2:00:09 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse Not at all. I don't think The taxpayer should be "footing the bill" for petroleum corporations either. But then again, you already knew that SS, since I've stated it numerous times... Selective memory perhaps? I believe in free enterprise and believe that the Federal government should not be subsidizing any body. It's not up to them to try and pick the winners or losers, which is what they are doing with subsidies. [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 5/4/2012 3:02:01 PM EST]
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 1:34:37 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse I see, so you think it's OK for taxpayers to foot the bill for petroleum corporations, but not ethanol producers.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 11:13:15 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "You mean the petroleum corporations" I see, playing ignorant... Of course not. I'm talking about the ethanol producers, and companies like ADM, or Cargill... But then you knew that....
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 11:03:28 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shockjock1961 says "corporations in the US need to have the taxpayer foot the bill" You mean the petroleum corporations?
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 10:48:26 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse Never said they weren't. Just curious how a family can manage this on their own in Italy, while corporations in the US need to have the taxpayer foot the bill and still can't do the same...
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 10:32:58 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Italy is a free country just like the US Shocky!
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 10:28:44 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse So a family in Italy can afford to risk building and running a cellulosic ethanol production plant, but Multibillion dollar corporations can't afford to do the same unless they have the taxpayer pay for a large chunk of the expenses, or at least have the taxpayer be the ones at risk if they fail in the endeavor?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 8:11:33 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse I'm saying that a family with money made a choice and made an investment. It sounds like they are a wealthy family. What's with your questions. They are odd at times! [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/4/2012 9:13:50 AM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 8:07:47 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "shocky....well evidently they have money" So are you saying that American Ethanol Producers are destitute?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 9:44:00 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse shocky....well evidently they have money. What part of the article is difficult for you to understand. "Of the handful of cellulosic ethanol developers making their way toward commercial cellulosic ethanol production, M&G is the first to make it this far with no outside financial support. Ghisolfi says it is because the company has self-financed everything that it has been able to make such significant progress in a short amount of time. “We were not slowed down by lack of funds or the need to raise capital,” he says. “Once the family had decided to invest a considerable amount of money, we could spend our money according to our initial plan.”
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 7:25:57 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse OK, GC, so explain to me why an Italian company can build an experimental Cellulosic ethanol plant using there own money exclusively, while companies here in the US cannot?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 5:11:10 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Silverstreaker...exactly!
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 3:23:07 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse "Shocky...the plant is in Italy...not the US" Shocky, the only thing that you have proved is that you have reading comprehension problems.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,322 Points:728,160 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 2:59:04 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Shockjock1961 wrote: "Do you mean like the time I proved that despite using 40% of the corn harvest, ethanol only replaces a very small fraction of the liquid fuels used for transportation (3.4% to be more precise)?" I'm still waiting for you to provide "a link to a respected Internet source" to backup your statement of US "using 40% of the corn harvest" to produce ethanol. I'm also still waiting for multiple other links that you failed to provide up to this date.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 2:51:47 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Shocky...the plant is in Italy...not the US" Further Proof that US companies won't risk building Cellulosic ethanol plants, unless of course the money at risk is taxpayer and not their own...
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 2:50:14 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Do you have any proof of your claim? You are always demanding links but rarely provide them yourself" Do you mean like the time I proved that despite using 40% of the corn harvest, ethanol only replaces a very small fraction of the liquid fuels used for transportation (3.4% to be more precise)?
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 2:47:28 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "The first U.S. plant planning to begin operating at a commercial-scale is the Ineos New Planet Bioenergy LLC facility, dubbed the Indian River BioEnergy Center, located near Vero Beach, Fla. The plant will produce 8 MMgy of ethanol and 6 megawatts of power using locally sourced municipal solid waste and vegetative waste, including some waste citrus, beginning in the second half of this year. In mid-March, the project was still on track to be mechanically complete by April and expected to meet the U.S. EPA’s expectations of producing about 2 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol this year. Last year, Ineos Bio received a $75 million loan guarantee from the USDA for the Indian River project, helping to alleviate some of the risk"
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 2:12:14 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Shocky...the plant is in Italy...not the US. Where does the article say that taxpayers are guaranteeing the loan? " Ghisolfi says. The company determined the risk was worth the cost, and M&G invested more than $200 million to fully fund its cellulosic ethanol activities, including technology development, the establishment of a pilot plant, developing biomass supplies to properly feed the technology, and, finally, the construction of a 15-20 MMgy production facility." [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/3/2012 3:17:12 PM EST]
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 2:09:34 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shockjock1961 says "Self financed? Hardly. The taxpayer is guaranteeing their loan. How is that "self financed"?" Do you have any proof of your claim? You are always demanding links but rarely provide them yourself.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 1:45:29 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Ghisolfi says it is because the company has self-financed" Self financed? Hardly. The taxpayer is guaranteeing their loan. How is that "self financed"?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 12:29:49 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse I thought that this was an interesting part of the article. "Of the handful of cellulosic ethanol developers making their way toward commercial cellulosic ethanol production, M&G is the first to make it this far with no outside financial support. Ghisolfi says it is because the company has self-financed everything that it has been able to make such significant progress in a short amount of time. “We were not slowed down by lack of funds or the need to raise capital,” he says. “Once the family had decided to invest a considerable amount of money, we could spend our money according to our initial plan.”
chemist74 Champion Author Cleveland Posts:13,510 Points:2,395,980 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 7:50:06 AM Ignore chemist74 Report Abuse I hope one of the cellulosic ethanol plants is eventually economically practical. Companies have been putting out press releases for years claiming that they are building a cellulosic ethanol plant or will be starting production soon but none seem to have actually been successful. At this point I do not believe anything in a press release and will wait until a plant is making a profit without any subsidy or tax break before I believe them.
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,237,055 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 2, 2012 5:00:25 PM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse "Any subsidy is a waste of taxpayer money..." Sure doesn't speak very highly of our system of higher education, now does it?
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,322 Points:728,160 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: May 2, 2012 3:30:21 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Shockjock1961 wrote: "Any subsidy is a waste of taxpayer money..." Including your paycheck that is heavily subsidized.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 2, 2012 3:21:49 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Shockjock1961, if these cellulosic ethanol plants become commercially viable, will you still consider them to be a waste of taxpayer money?" If they have to be subsidized, to get them running or to keep them running, yes. Any subsidy is a waste of taxpayer money... [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 5/2/2012 4:26:36 PM EST]
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 2, 2012 2:46:18 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shockjock1961, if these cellulosic ethanol plants become commercially viable, will you still consider them to be a waste of taxpayer money?
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,113 Points:2,184,185 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 2, 2012 11:19:05 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse Lots of promises, but there have been plenty promises in the past (and plenty of taxpayer money wasted in the process).
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,532 Points:54,300 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 1, 2012 8:26:39 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse sivlerstreaker....let's hope. I want to buy one. maybe we should form a co-op and buy one! I'm impressed at how they can change from week to week what they are processing!
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,215,485 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 1, 2012 8:08:18 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Let's hope they can become commercially viable.