Daurel
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2011 10:16:03 AM
Nerys Just where did you get your information?
First place How do you think the Fuel company's adjust the octane in "regular Gas?" Additives approximately a 1000 different ones for a fact some of the major ones are Benzene, Acetone, Poly butane, And!!! Ethanol!! Just look up the facts before posting fiction.
Second place Ethanol burns cooler NOT Hotter in a low compression engine It does not start to burn later just burns longer That is why Hi compression engines and turbocharged engines LOVE it.
Last time I checked the average automotive engine had a hotter "spark" than a Briggs and Strattion engine and they burn ethanol and Methanol just fine.
Now the zinger I get the same fuel mileage with E85 as I do with plain gas and about .5 mpg less towing with a Cpu Designed for alky use. Pulling a 14 Ft. 7ft wide enclosed trailer. ON a LOW compression Nissan engine. Can not wait to bump the compression up and really see what it will do.
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nerys
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2011 3:47:36 PM
Here is what I know Wissotasuper.
I am seeing 15 to 27% reductions in fuel economy that I can PROVE are from the Ethanol Laced gasoline.
this costs me THOUSANDS of dollars a year (what savings???)
How can I prove it? easy. I put E0 in the car and WOW my fuel economy returns to normal. Check out my ecomodder log from last year where I went from 47-48mpg to 55mpg washing the gas to remove the ethanol and then back down to 47-48mpg when I switched back to E10.
I did this with ALL my car's to confirm the results.
My van 19-21 on E0 13-15 on E10 I go out of state to a state with some E0 (rare now but more common a few years ago) and WOW back to 19-21.
My jeep 22-24mpg. E10 16-17 mpg.
I took 5+ year old E0 gasoline out of the tank in the motorhome and WOW back to 22mpg. what a shocker.
My minivan 28mpg SOLID for over 80,000 miles (96 voyager 3.0)
E10 19-20mpg. I switch back to E0 28mpg again.
thats as much "proof" as I need.
our typical engines are NOT DESIGNED to burn Ethanol.
its higher octane does not matter since they use LOWER octane gasoline to take advantage of the octane increase with ethanol my gas is still 87 octane.
yes it burns hotter thats part of the problem. our cars do not SPARK hot enough to actually IGNITE the ethanol so it ignites "later" from the flame front off the gasoline which INHIBITS piston motion murdering efficiency.
can you get more POWER out of ethanol? YES can you more fuel economy? NOT A CHANCE.
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Shockjock1961
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 11:36:12 AM
"I also agree that drivers in US love their trucks and SUVs"
The love of the fuel guzzler is one of the main reasons we are resorting to using food to create fuel to feed these monstrosities...
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 10:32:57 AM
reb4, Ford "F" series will work. Thanks.
I also agree that drivers in US love their trucks and SUVs.
[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 8/11/2011 11:33:43 AM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 8:27:32 AM
krzysiek_ck - How about "F" series, although all of the Ford F series trucks are F-x50.
Where X is a number from 1 to I believe 7.
WHat is more astounding is the fact that world production of vehicles is predominantly cars... But if you look at sales of vehicles in U.S., it's reversed...
Automotive industry - International
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 8:04:17 AM
1. You did not specify US in the original post, did you.
2. There is not such thing as Ford F50.
[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 8/11/2011 9:07:48 AM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 7:53:47 AM
krzysiek_ck - Ford truck is #1 selling vehicle in the U.S.
I thought I would clarify this.
Although the Corolla name plate has out sold the Truck in the world, The corolla does not even come close to matching 50% of the F50 Vehicle sales.
The numbers are astounding... In U.S. more than 9 million vehicles have been sold since 1999.
Ford F-Series sales - wiki
Toyota Corolla - us sales - less than 1/2 of Ford F series in US
Maybe this explains why U.S. uses most of the oil and we have to resort to extreme measures to meet the fueling of our vehicles.
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Daurel
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2011 9:15:36 AM
AMX 70 Quote; So if you all are so worried about giving money to the enemy, why did Obama give 2 billion to the Brazilians for oil exploration in the gulf and stated that we will be their best customers!! When will we learn to draw from our own resources and stop paying someone else for the service. Sorry to burst your bubble need to go to "Fact Check"
[Edited by: Daurel at 8/10/2011 10:17:59 AM EST]
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 2:32:29 PM
"Your pretty delusional if you think that no imported oil is used in the production and distribution of ethanol. The fact that it is makes your statement null and void..."
Shockjock is right it does take imported crude oil. Like 25/1,000ths of a gallon of diesel per gallon of ethanol to plant and harvest the corn. Then it takes another 2/1,000ths of a gallon of diesel fuel to transport a 1,000 bushel semi 30 miles to an ethanol plant.
Crude oil in the processing of corn to ethanol? That;s actually natural gas. With that step you put in 25,000 btu of natural gas and end up with 75,000 btu of ethanol. Isn't natural gas mostly a domestic product?
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 2:15:54 PM
"Look at the #1 selling vehicle for the last 35 or so years.. Ford F50 truck"
Incorrect.
1. Ford F50 pruction number = 0
2. The best selling vehicle is Toyota Corolla
On the other hand, Ford F150 is the second best selling vehicle.
[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 8/9/2011 3:17:01 PM EST]
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 1:01:27 PM
"Illusions are sold by Marlboro men on TV driving alone on a cliff in the western sunset in order to make a sale to Melvin Milquetoast in downtown Peoria so he can drive to the mall in an Illusion."
That's a great reason for Melvin to place a half ton of drywall in his minivan. Just think of how much less fuel Melvin will use when he's sliced in two.
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 12:40:22 PM
(Reb4): "But our problem is our addiction to oil... Look at the #1 selling vehicle for the last 35 or so years.. Ford F50 truck.."
(GM1954) => Oil also fuels the most productive society on the planet. Those half ton pickups are a valuable productive tool providing products and services. <=
Reb4 definitely wins this one. The sales figures are fact, while the ideal of the truck's practicality is illusion. Illusions are sold by Marlboro men on TV driving alone on a cliff in the western sunset in order to make a sale to Melvin Milquetoast in downtown Peoria so he can drive to the mall in an Illusion. The fact that Melvin will never actually *need* to tow an asteroid fails to bubble to the surface of his synapses as the hypnotic mantra seeps in. They don't sell him a truck; they sell him a self-esteem tool.
Next time you're on a lengthy trip, count up the number of pickups you see and tally how many of them are carrying anything at all. I get about 80% empty. That's not what I call "productive".
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 8/9/2011 1:41:19 PM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 12:37:35 PM
gm1954, - No problem with me for people that need or WANT pickup trucks or suv's or humvee's...
10% is a significant, with the amount of oil used (because of all the inefficient vehichles used), but US still imports a lot more than ethanol can ever produce...
I'll answer this in another posting this month... promise..
stator7, no e0 anywhere near where i live..
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Stator7
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Idaho
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 9:21:04 AM
For all the sons for using real gas go to
Pure Gas Stations at pure-gas.org
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 8:18:26 AM
"But our problem is our addiction to oil... Look at the #1 selling vehicle for the last 35 or so years.. Ford F50 truck.."
Oil also fuels the most productive society on the planet. Those half ton pickups are a valuable productive tool providing products and services.
"Ethanol is barely covering 10 % of the fuel, and most of that is mandated by epa and ironically, it's only for certain areas of the country (so some area they don't care about...).."
That;s a significant amount of fuel. It's more fuel than most countries on the rest of the planet use in gasoline. It would be difficult to argue that the 13 billion gallons of ethanol used in the US doesn't affect global oil prices.
"It's time to stop funding the oil industry and stop funding ethanol since it can not possibly fill the gap of the oil that we import...'
Got any examples?
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AMX70
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 7:58:55 AM
So if you all are so worried about giving money to the enemy, why did Obama give 2 billion to the Brazilians for oil exploration in the gulf and stated that we will be their best customers!! When will we learn to draw from our own resources and stop paying someone else for the service.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 7:57:13 AM
James48843 - Thank you for your service.
I agree that wars for Oil are not where we need to be. But our problem is our addiction to oil... Look at the #1 selling vehicle for the last 35 or so years.. Ford F50 truck.. Year in and year out (and in fact every month since 2008). And when price of fuel was high, the truck was nearly 2 to 1 over competition... last couple of months the #2 vehicle is Chevy Pickup...
What vehicle do you use???Look at the price of fuel in most of the industrialized nations and you will see our prices are the lowest... When price in rural america or down south for fuel gets over 4.00 gallon the alarms go up and it's like someone was threatining their families!
Ethanol is barely covering 10 % of the fuel, and most of that is mandated by epa and ironically, it's only for certain areas of the country (so some area they don't care about...)..
It's time to stop funding the oil industry and stop funding ethanol since it can not possibly fill the gap of the oil that we import...
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AMX70
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 7:50:21 AM
Hate to shock your world, but ethanol causes one to use more gas to accomplish the same performance from as straight gasoline, proven fact, I was getting 440 miles to the tank before mandatory 10% was added,now 320 a tank ask those who use e85 instead of regular unleaded they find themselves back at the station sooner. And the energy used to produce ethanol is a negative that's why we as a country Subsidize it with tax dollars.
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Daurel
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2011 7:39:41 AM
James48843
Thank you for your time!
My Son;
Tactical Chemical,
Tactical Nuke,
Tactical Bio Warfare,
Airborne Army
Korea 4years Iraq 4 years He is now at Indy His unit one of the few that are active stateside.
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jdhelm
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Iowa
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 5:55:28 PM
James48843 - here's a shout-out HOOAH to you and all that served, I'm on board with your way of thinking. Folks who haven't served - just can't imagine . . .
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 3:46:44 PM
reb4, believe me I agree with you that lobbying, any type, feeds our congress. I just like the expressions you used and decided to have some fun with them.
[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 8/8/2011 4:47:23 PM EST]
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reb4
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 3:33:10 PM
silverstreak, why should ethanol business be any different that any other lobby group... This is ethanol area.
Krz, google some of their positions in the links provided and see where their information comes up...
also check out the leaders of the congress and senate for some of the states where ethanol is produced / corn is produced.
If youre interested...
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 10:07:29 PM
reb4, are you trying to say that the ethanol industry should not be allowed to lobby?
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 8:03:30 PM
reb4, you still failed to explain to me
"And what industry is Lobbying hard and fast to get the protection for their product and regulation... It's the Ethanol / corn industry..."
Especially "hard and fast"
"Why is the ethanol lobbyists fighting so furiously..."
Especially "fighting so furiously"
You also still refuse to understand who gets the tax incentive for the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC).
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reb4
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 6:33:23 PM
krz... you are so blind you won't recognize, nor will you accept "proof"..
Why would I bother... If you are open, here are a few links, but this is Position by Ethanol lobby group...
Text from site....
Tax Incentives
For Ethanol Production, Use and Sale
Various tax credits and other incentives are made available by the U.S. government for the production, blending and/or sale of ethanol and ethanol blends. The following lists each such tax incentive available, and briefly describes its parameters.
What do they do????
I am so glad you asked though... Thanks... (there are other sites promoting the same "positions") and check the people these groups and members have donated to... in senate and congress.
Philosophy
As the national trade association for the U.S. ethanol industry, the Renewable Fuels Association (RFA) promotes policies, regulations and research and development initiatives that will lead to the increased production and use of fuel ethanol. RFA membership includes a broad cross-section of businesses, individuals and organizations dedicated to the expansion of the U.S. fuel ethanol industry.
Organized in 1981, RFA serves as the voice of the ethanol industry, providing advocacy, authoritative analysis, and important industry data to its members, Congress, federal and state government agencies, strategic partners, the media and other opinion-leader audiences.
The RFA is governed by a Board of Directors comprised of a representative from each producer member. The Board meets several times a year to set Association policy. RFA producer members represent the majority of U.S. ethanol production.
Objectives:
Promote federal, state and local government policies, programs and initiatives that encourage expanded ethanol use.
Provide technically accurate and timely information to auto manufacturers and technicians, the media, policy makers, marketers and refiners, and the general public.
Participate in educational activities to increase public awareness regarding renewable fuels and the positive contribution they make to American energy independence, the economy and the environment.
Provide RFA members with the information necessary for informed business decisions
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James48843
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Michigan
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 1:36:46 PM
[quote]"Don't assume that if a tax rate is higher that it will produce more tax revenue. We are at a point in this country where tax rates are so high, on everything, that increasing rates often decreases tax revenue."[/quote]
Taxes in the United States are at rates lower than at any time since before World War II. Source:http://factcheck.org/2011/07/fiscal-factcheck/
If taxes go up on gasoline, they will discourage gasoline use and encourage the use of alternatives. I'm all for that- give me a nice $1 a gallon gasoline tax, and use the proceeds to build out E85 infrastructure, and to fund R&D in other fuel alternatives. We are already subsidizing oil companies- we need to stop that, and start helping alternative fuel industries to break our addiction to foreign oil.
[Edited by: James48843 at 8/7/2011 2:37:27 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 12:48:14 PM
"And what industry is Lobbying hard and fast to get the protection for their product and regulation... It's the Ethanol / corn industry..."
It is the second time you made this claim.
"fighting so furiously", "hard and fast"
I'm still waiting for the proof.
Last time I checked the Big Oil fits your criteria much better than the "Ethanol/Corn industry".
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 9:18:50 AM
"And what industry is Lobbying hard and fast to get the protection for their product and regulation... It's the Ethanol / corn industry..."
All companies lobby to protect their products.
I own corn and soybean land. Quite frankly I don't care if I receive a subsidy or not. What I object to is people misrepresenting the facts. This is comical that, when presented with facts that don't fit your assumptions, you circle back to the "well, it's a subsidy" rhetoric.
The inevitable market response to the elimination of the Volumetric Ethanol Excist Tax Credit will be Higher fuel prices. This be because more excise tax will be paid to the government. You can feel good about eliminating a "subsidy" that is actually a reduction in the tax you pay. But, when that happens you're paying more for fuel.
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reb4
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 8:46:04 AM
GM1954- And what industry is Lobbying hard and fast to get the protection for their product and regulation... It's the Ethanol / corn industry...
IF the subsidy's which the ethanol has pointed out goes to the people that "Blend" the oil due end up stopping at the end of the year... which the ethanol / corn lobby groups say they want... but wait, they want to have the subsidy go to pay for special equipment to deliver ethanol blends..
That is on top of the Guarantee's the ethanol industry has to supply 10 (or soon to be 15%) of fuel to all vehicles (or is it just in major metropolitan areas).. Very confusing...
Americans are misinformed on the deals being made behind their backs.. thats the confusion...
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Dr_Denny
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Pennsylvania
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2011 6:37:09 AM
As long as my vehicle and boat warrantees remain intact, I don't really care. The only thing I see really wrong with ethanol is that it's caused destruction of wildlands as more corn was planted to produce more ethanol. For the tree huggers, this has to be a major conflict. (I'm not one as is evidenced by too many gas guzzling toys!) Last summer, our marina finally went to ethanol because state law requied it. You should have seen the lines at the gas dock to get that last 'pure' gas! LOL
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 3:19:06 PM
"I don't care about ethanol... What I do care about is the forcing it down everyones throat and not allowing a choice..."
Well, you don't have a choice, thanks to the EPA. If not ethanol, it would be MTBE. Take your complaints to the EPA. But, if a "oxygenate" is required, it darned well should be a domestic product vs one that is imported.
"It's wrong... and I take it from most of the supporters here there is a real $ incentive for them to get the best price... I have no problem. But admit it... Just admit it.""
Now that you mention it, it does seem like most of the farmers and ethanol producers are in business to make money.
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reb4
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 2:10:29 PM
Goldseeker, there are a number of links that reference the use of Wheat.
I used the link to show prices, wheat was one. Here is another I didn't post.
So what was the reason you alluded hypocrisy? I was using Wiki, not something for an organization that ONLY promotes your point of view...
regadring "a" reference for Backup your claims - wiki (you can search for this in the link).
"The promotion of, Federal subsidy for, and high import tariffs protecting domestic production of ethanol motor fuel and the Federal mandate for oxygenated gasoline are essentially political phenomena. The principal driver in promoting E85 is the North American auto industry's need to avoid CAFE fines; in the fuel alcohol industry as a whole lobbying by American corn producers and agribusiness, in particular Archer Daniels Midland, the biggest ethanol producer in the United States, has done much to get the fuel alcohol industry its present subsidized and protected status. Advocates for wheat, corn and sugar growers have succeeded in their attempts to lobby for regulatory intervention encouraging adoption of ethanol[3], stimulating debate over who the major beneficiaries of increased use of ethanol would be. Some researchers have warned that ethanol produced from agricultural feedstocks will cause a global food shortage[4], contributing to starvation in the third world."
I don't care about ethanol... What I do care about is the forcing it down everyones throat and not allowing a choice... It's wrong... and I take it from most of the supporters here there is a real $ incentive for them to get the best price... I have no problem. But admit it... Just admit it.
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 12:52:05 PM
"3. Back up your arguments with facts. Where possible, facts should be supported by a link to a respected Internet source."
Utter hypocrisy!
Reb4, it wasn't long ago that you mentioned corn, soy beans, and wheat prices being driven up by ethanol and/or biofuels. You can argue all you want about corn and soy beans, but I do not understand how you can included wheat. Look there are 219 ethanol plants in America, and do you know how many use wheat as a feedstock? None. I suppose that you could use the argument that corn means less wheat acres planted. Well that would be a false statement also. There was an additional 3 million acres of wheat planted this year.
When it comes to posting facts you have been loose and fast. You are nothing more than another drive by farmer as some would call it, or an armchair expert as I would call it.
I would suggest that if you cannot stand the heat, then perhaps you should stay out of here.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 12:27:17 PM
gm1954 - ag states have unemployment in the 3 - 6 %...
That was your statment was it not?
And it just so happens those states are not among the highest populated...
But GM1954, please continue believing what you want...
Since you refer to me as "einstein", Let me quote him here:
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.
Albert Einstein
FROM THE POSTING GUIDE LINES... ATTACK FREELY THE IDEAS...
2. Feel free to attack ideas but please do not attack other posters. This forum is designed to be a discussion and exchange of ideas, so please keep in mind that other people’s ideas may well be different than your own. Please keep it civil.
3. Back up your arguments with facts. Where possible, facts should be supported by a link to a respected Internet source.
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 8:12:09 AM
"So lets spend more...."
Einstein, it is not a subsidy. It's an effective net reduction in the fuel excise tax rate. Reducing the rate does not mean less revenue to the federal government.
As far as unemployment in ag states, you are making my point. Every one of those states, with the exception of Illinois and Michigan have unemployment rates lower than the national average.
The fuel value of ethanol represents an incremental $40 billion in revenue to those states. $40 billion might not seem like much money these days, but it has a large impact to the ag states.
You don't need to have great analytical skills to conclude $40 billion staying in the US is better for US citizens than spending it on imported oil.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 7:52:12 AM
gm1954- yea, who's money is it... that kind of logic has gotten the U.S. into the current national debt we now have...
And it is my money going to subisidies.... Since I pay taxes.... and have done so for 40 Plus years!
Current National Debt (as of this posting 14,574,607,940,062.25)
So lets spend more....
That's the problem with the subsidies! They all convince poloticians it's just 6 Billion, the debt is in the trillions,it's just a small amount compared to billions!
I don't get HANDOUTS!
I have paid my way...
Here, Let's go off of forecast from agri site.
Corn Production by state
U.S. Corn production by State forecasted for 2010-11 (in million bushels)
Major States:
Iowa - 2187.7 million bushels - 6% unemployment
Indiana - 918.4 million bushels - 8.3% unemployment
Nebraska - 1477.4 million bushels - 4.1 % unemployment
Minnesota - 1260 million bushels - 6.7% unemployment
Illinois - 1971.6 million bushels - 9.2% unemploymentOther States:
Colorado - 171.4 million, we won't count Colorado,...
Kansas - 580.5 million, 6.6% Unemployment
Kentucky - 157.4 million, Can't count if we don't include Colorado
Michigan - 335.4 million, 10.5% - More corn than Nord Dakota!
Missouri - 387.3 million, 8.8% - unemployment
North Dakota - 249.3 million, 3.2% ... no wonder you wanted to include...
Ohio - 541.2 million 8.8% unemployment
South Dakota - 595 million - 4.9 %unemployment
Texas - 300.3 million bushels, 8.2% unemployment
Wisconsin - 477.9 million bushels - 7.6% unemployment
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 7:42:44 AM
fieldt, read the law. What most people call an ethanol subsidy is actually a reduction of the fuel excise tax paid by the seller of fuel. Lift the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit and you will wind up paying more for fuel.
Don't assume that if a tax rate is higher that it will produce more tax revenue. We are at a point in this country where tax rates are so high, on everything, that increasing rates often decreases tax revenue.
When the fuel wholesaler and retailer pay less tax, they have two options, reduce product cost, hire more people, or take that upside as profit and then pay regular income tax.
[Edited by: GM1954 at 8/5/2011 8:43:43 AM EST]
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fieldt
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Lansing
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 7:27:57 AM
GM1954, who's money is it?
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2011 7:20:28 AM
"WE NEED TO STOP SUBSIDIES NOW!"
Einstein, it's not your money paying for a "subsidy". However, it is your money whey you buy gasoline. What you call as subsidy is a net reduction of the fuel excise tax YOU PAY. If the ethanol excise tax relief goes away, you pay more for all fuel, including gasoline.
Also, prime corn blet states are Most of Iowa and Nebraska and parts of South Dakota, North Dakota, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Indiana. Colorado ain't one of the (the corn doesn't grow well in rocks). Like I said aside from Illinois, a major population state, the corn belt states have a low unemployment rate. That should be obvious.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 10:41:49 PM
Un-Employment in Corn Producing states:
Iowa - 2187.7 million 6% of the labor force
Indiana - 918.4 Million 8.3% of labor force
Nebraska - 1477.4 million 4.1% OF Labor force
Illinois - 1971.6 million 9.2% of the labor force
Minnesota - 1260 million 6.7% of the labor force
Colorado - 171.4 million 8.5% of the labor force
Wisconsin - 477.9 million 7.6% of the labor force
Kansas - 580.5 million 6.6% of the labor force
National average - 9.2%
More than 3-6% but who wants to be accurate...
GM-1954 - WE NEED TO STOP SUBSIDIES NOW!
Everyone knows these subsidies need to stop, but the ethanol lobby continues to get a stay of ending these subsidies...
Let the industry stand on their own two feet...
just to set the record straight, I don't work for oil industry... I don't work for any anti farm industry... In fact I belong to the farm bureau for my state, have been for many years. But I don't agree with the subsidies!
I just think our government is spending money all over the place and it has got to stop.
[Edited by: reb4 at 8/4/2011 11:47:15 PM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 9:57:05 PM
gm-1954,
"Ethanol is the only industry I know of that receives a triple crown of government support: Its use is mandated by law, it enjoys protective tariffs and oil companies receive federal subsidies to use it,"
"These flawed policies, which cost taxpayers nearly $6 billion a year, must be changed."GM-1954, Good, so when the subsidies stop, the ethanol business will continue to boom since it doesn't require the subsidies.
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roadrunnin
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 4:49:28 PM
Too bad cars don't just run on solar power.
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 10:30:13 AM
"The explanation may be a little more complex, not not so much so that it is hard to understand. The reason that ethanol is less expensive to produce is in part due to crop subsidies. "
Where do these insane rumors come from? There is no crop subsidy to produce ethanol.
"This, of course, does not address the issue of taking a food source and making it a fuel source. That is a different issue. "
Actually, farmers have addressed this issue, by growing 30% more corn than they did 6 or 7 years ago. Not only did this meet the deamnds for ethanol production, it increased the amount of animal feed. You see, distillers grain is a major product that is made when turning corn into ethanol. Also, the US has almost 40 million acres that the USDA pays farmers NOT TO GROW CROPS on. By comparison, US farmers grow corn on 80 million acres each year. The children will not starve.
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RAB2010
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 9:07:23 AM
The rationale for rejecting ethanol as a motor fuel is simple: there is less return for the investment for the consumer. The explanation may be a little more complex, not not so much so that it is hard to understand. The reason that ethanol is less expensive to produce is in part due to crop subsidies. The cost is the same for the consumer at the pump. Unless there is some hard evidence that E-85 customers are paying 10-20 cents per gallon less than what is being sold as gasoline (with any where fro 0-10 percent ethanol in it), then it seems the evidence supports the hypothesis that regardless of production cost, the consumer is paying the same price per gallon. That being the case, the consumer is wise to burn fuel that will provide the higher BTU value, hence higher miles per gallon. This, of course, does not address the issue of taking a food source and making it a fuel source. That is a different issue.
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jacksfan
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 8:53:38 AM
"That excludes Illinois, of course, where businesses are exiting the state like rats jumping a portside listing ship."
Funny, we sure don't see shocky gloating about Michigan's financial woes anymore.
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2011 7:33:28 AM
“Everyone knows who is benefiting from the credits...”
What everyone knows™ and reality are two different things. Here’s who benefits:
-Farmers with expanded market for their products’.
-Businesses supporting farmers. The unemployment rate in most corn-belt states is between 3 and 6%. That excludes Illinois, of course, where businesses are exiting the state like rats jumping a portside listing ship.
-Ethanol produces who generate tens of billions in taxable income and employ hundreds of thousands of US citizens.
-Oil companies who extend a barrel of crude oil by using clean fast burning fractions of oil, previously unsuitable for gasoline production. They also benefit from the incremental availability of 13 billion gallons of domestic fuel. They also benefit by paying less in excise taxes.
-People who own oil company stock and stock, ethanol company stock, and stock in any business that supports the ethanol and oil industry.
-The US consumer by having an incremental 13 billion gallons of transportation fuel in the market to decrease the price of gasoline. They also benefit by the fact that less excise tax goes to the federal government on a per gallon basis.
-The US tax payer. Ag subsidies have decreased to the tune of $5 to 10 billion a year because of the increased demand for grain.
-The US consumer. By importing 13 billion gallons less, the price of fuel goes down. This means every product you buy that uses fuel to make costs less. Furthermore, ethanol decreases the trade deficit by about $40billion a year. This helps strengthen the US dollar.
-The Federal Government. 13 billion gallons of domestic fuel in the US generates tax revenue. Tax revenue from increased farmer profit, corporate profits from the ethanol producer, income taxes from the ethanol employees, incremental income tax from oil company profits, and increased income tax revenue from all the supporting businesses supporting ethanol production. The government also collects capital gains taxes on the sale of stock directly and indirectly related to ethanol production.
I’m sure I left some out. But, if you think it's better to send US dollars overseas to purchase crude oil when we sit on an untapped resource at home, you are kidding yourself.
[Edited by: GM1954 at 8/4/2011 8:34:46 AM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2011 11:16:55 AM
"Why is the ethanol lobbyists fighting so furiously..."
Can you prove it?
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2011 9:52:15 AM
GMGM1954, wait until 2012... and see if any money is available then.
everyone knows who is benefiting from the credits...
Why is the ethanol lobbyists fighting so furiously...
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2011 10:01:19 PM
"Since 2004 blenders have received a credit, now worth 45 cents, for each gallon of ethanol they mix with regular gasoline "
So, you didn't find any "ethanol subsidy", did you. What you found was a reduction in excise tax paid by the oil company.
That blenders credit is know as the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit. That is essentially a reduction in the overall fuel excise tax paid the the Federal Government. Thats a tax paid by you, when you buy fuel. Get rid of what you call a "ethanol subsidy" and the taxes paid to the government increase. If you think that benefits the consumer, you are mistaken.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2011 9:46:37 PM
Link - Ethanol subsidies - Article describing the subsidies - The EconomistSince 2004 blenders have received a credit, now worth 45 cents, for each gallon of ethanol they mix with regular gasoline (petrol). Most of the benefit flows down to farmers. And since 1980 domestic producers have also been protected by a 54 cent tariff on imports, which serves to keep out ethanol made more cheaply from Brazilian sugar cane.
Here is another linkEPA requires... ethanol to oxygenate the fuel ...
to me, this seems like a hand out... guaranteed 10% market...
Forbes article on SUBSIDIES TO ETHANOL
INDUSTRY
One particularly bold example is the ethanol lobby, which is mounting a full-court press to renew expiring tariffs and tax protections that raise consumer prices while doing little to improve energy independence or the environment. Lawmakers should do nothing and allow the ethanol program to expire.
As they state, subsidizing blending ethanol into gasoline is fiscally indefensible. If the current subsidy is extended for five years, the Federal Treasury would pay oil companies at least $31 billion to use 69 billion gallons of corn ethanol that the Federal Renewable Fuels Standard already requires them to use. We cannot afford to pay industry for following the law. Even Al Gore has admitted he was wrong to support ethanol subsidies.
Unfortunately, the Obama administration seems bent on carving out a special niche for ethanol, with the Environmental Protection Agency moving forward with an initiative to increase the amount of ethanol blended in fuels from 10% to 15%. Coming from Illinois, a major corn-producing state,But Ethanol credits remain. at least through end of year...
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